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[Music]

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Hello Shocker Nation, welcome to the Forward Together

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podcast. My first guest today has spent

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much of her life doing things that most

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of us only see in James Bond or Jason

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Bourne movies.

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Jonna Mendez is the retired Chief of

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Disguise for the CIA.

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During her tenure with the CIA, she was

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an expert in disguise, identity

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transformation, and clandestine imaging.

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During her tenure with the CIA, she

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matched wits with intelligence agencies

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across the globe during the Cold War. She

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is also a proud shocker having attended

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Wichita State in the mid-1960s.

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Good afternoon, Jonna, it's so good to see

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you. Thank you for agreeing to join the

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podcast today, we're very interested to

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hear more about what you've been up to

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since you were in Wichita.

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So after you left Wichita State, as you

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told me earlier, before we taped this, in

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the late 60s, how did you get connected

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with the CIA?

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Well, it's -

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it's a little bit of a story as you

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might imagine. I didn't even know what

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the CIA was back then. I don't think I

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knew.

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I went to Europe

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to be in my best friend's wedding.

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She was marrying

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an Army officer who was stationed in

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Germany

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in Fulda

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and so that that went wonderfully.

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After the wedding ceremony

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we were all dressed up, we got in tanks,

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and we paraded through this little town

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and then I was sleeping on their couch,

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for maybe a week,

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when a bell went off

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that, maybe, as they prepared to go on

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their honeymoon, I should also

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prepare to leave.

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So I took a train back to Frankfurt,

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Germany,

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and I decided then that I didn't want to

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go back to Wichita.

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So what to do?

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I was, how old was I? I wasn't very old.

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Maybe I was 19.

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I went to the train station,

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got a pocket full of change,

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pulled out a phone book, in a German

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phone booth, and started alphabetically

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calling American businesses.

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So it was banking town

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I made four calls.

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I called the American consulate,

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they said, "Honey, we don't do jobs. We do

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visas."

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I call Bank of America.

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I called American Express.

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And then I called Chase Manhattan Bank,

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and, well, it was interesting. I said, "I'm

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looking for a job." They said, they said, um

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"do you speak German?" I said, "No."

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They said, "Have you worked in a bank before?" I

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said, "no."

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They said, "do you have a work permit?"

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I said, "I do not."

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And they said,

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"Why don't you come down and talk to us?"

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and they hired me.

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So that was how to get in the door

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and to

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leap forward. There were some Americans

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coming into that bank, every week,

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probably with their paychecks. They were

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civilians.

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This was at the time when there was an

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enormous American military presence

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there,

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but these were not military people.

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So I got to know them and

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went to some wine festivals with a group

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of them,

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started dating one of them,

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another leap forward,

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so when he proposed to me

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in Vienna, Austria,

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three days before he proposed to me, he

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told me he worked for the CIA.

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He said, "You'll love it.

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Lots of travel.

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See the world."

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And I really liked it so, so

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um

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that's how that went.

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I then was a wife of a CIA officer

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and overseas

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they will hire you in on a contract

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basis.

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So I wasn't recruited,

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I kind of came in a side door.

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There I was.

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(laughs)

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So I,

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and we'll hear more about some of that

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here in a second, I read an interesting

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and kind of humorous story

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about a meeting you had with President

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George H.W Bush who used to be also the

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CIA director.

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Yeah.

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When you were

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um...

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able and during that meeting are able to

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show him some of your disguise skills,

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tell us that version of that meeting,

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Tell us your version of that meeting.

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That was a meeting that wasn't supposed

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to happen I had never

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intended to take

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these materials to the White House but

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my boss and his boss they all wanted to.

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So it was it was Brent Scowcroft, John

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Sununu,

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Bob Gates.

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Dan Quayle came in

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and I was there wearing a mask

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it was the end of a 10-year

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R&D program to develop that mask.

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We already had used masks over the years

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but they were like

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Hollywood stunt double masks

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they looked great

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but they didn't move.

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So if you're in a car

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they were sufficient but we needed

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something that you could actually wear.

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So I was wearing the second one in the

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White House.

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The first one

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I was an African-American male.

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Looked great.

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I told I told him I can't carry it off

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though I'm not a man,

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I don't have a man's voice, so we made a

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second one,

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and the second one was the face of a

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young woman that worked for me

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who was going to -

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she was leaving for California.

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It was her goodbye present,

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was her face.

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She was cute.

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She had a great hairdo

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because that was part of it.

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This was a whole thing that went on

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so I briefed the president

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and he did not know.

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Of course, he didn't know.

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We wouldn't - we wouldn't have done it if

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we didn't think it would work,

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but I must say when I took it off

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it was a moment.

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He loved it. He just got...

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I always thought he was a very

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emotionally kind of flat guy on a on a

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TV screen? Well,

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he was not emotionally flat. He thought

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this was very fun.

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John Sununu, who was sitting next to me,

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is making all these notes because he was

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going to go next.

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I was working on this, he wasn't

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listening at all to me, wasn't looking, he

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looked up.

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He almost fell off his chair.

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So I was the first one to brief the

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president that day and then I was the

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first one to leave and go to the outer

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office

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and the White House photographer

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who had been in there the whole time. Ca-chink, ca-chink, ca-chink.

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I think she's always in there.

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she came out and said "excuse me what did

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you do?"

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and I said, "I can't tell you, it's

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classified."

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And I think I ticked her off

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because it took 10 years for that photo

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to show up in my office

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and they had airbrushed. They had

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airbrushed the mask out.

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I was holding it up in my hands

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and instead I have a picture in my

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library -

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they left my finger in - it looks like I'm

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lecturing the president,

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so my friends would come in and see that

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picture and say,

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"what were you telling him?"

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and I say

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"it's classified, I can't talk about it."

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That was the mask.

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Yeah,

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very interesting.

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You know, as I was sitting here,

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listening to you we actually have had

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other graduates who've worked with the

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CIA,

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um and also the Secret Service so I

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don't know what it is in terms of some

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of the education that we have given our

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students that have perhaps been

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connected but could you tell us

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 what your time here at Wichita State

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how that contributed and how that may

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have helped you and and the kind of work

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that you ended up doing at the CIA?

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You know, when I went to Germany and decided to stay,

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I wanted to do something

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that had some meaning to it this sounds

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but I was thinking that way something

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that would make a difference what would

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it be,

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well it clearly wasn't going to be a

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Chase Manhattan Bank.

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And I worked briefly at the big

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military hospital

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and and that that played to my strengths

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because I had worked for

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a group of anesthesiologists at Wesley

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when I was going to Wichita State.

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That's where my tuition came from so I

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had

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some knowledge

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but that still wasn't it.

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Jumping into the CIA I could see

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an opportunity

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to do something worth doing and maybe to

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help make a difference and I think a lot

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of

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your

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WSU people who find themselves going

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into these pieces of government, some of

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them might have the same kind of

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motivation.

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I speak every,

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well, every summer, for instance there's a

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group of uh

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1500 young high school graduates

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that come through in these organized

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groups

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and I speak to them 200 at a time,

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talking about

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doing something that makes a difference.

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There's a huge government thing here

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you've never even heard of it.

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Fabulous jobs. I mean see the world or

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not,

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but consider it.

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Yeah, I don't know, if you know this

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um uh with the expansion of the

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University it's not exactly related to

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the the work of the CIA but we have a

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very strong School of Criminal Justice

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here

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um that has developed all kinds of

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partnerships with our local policing

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agencies,

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um the justice department and the ATF

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and Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and

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they're moving a gun crime intelligence

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or they're developing a new gun crime

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crime intelligence center here on our

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campus and it's because of our expertise

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in criminal justice some of this related

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00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:34,880
kind of work

284
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,800
that has really spurred that and then

285
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,959
also the work that we've been

286
00:11:39,959 --> 00:11:42,120
doing in our research and digital

287
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,579
transformation which you know it's so

288
00:11:44,579 --> 00:11:46,920
important when you're doing

289
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,839
intelligence type work from what I've

290
00:11:48,839 --> 00:11:51,000
learned and I'm assuming

291
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,980
um you know that as well.

292
00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:54,600
Those things

293
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,420
they fit together intelligence and

294
00:11:57,420 --> 00:12:01,019
and law enforcement and

295
00:12:01,019 --> 00:12:04,079
the whole criminal aspect of it. ATF, for

296
00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:06,540
instance, I almost got shot once because

297
00:12:06,540 --> 00:12:09,600
they were worried that I was ATF,

298
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,820
uh but then I was a woman and they

299
00:12:11,820 --> 00:12:14,940
thought ATF doesn't hire women, do they?

300
00:12:14,940 --> 00:12:17,579
So they didn't shoot me. But it's

301
00:12:17,579 --> 00:12:19,560
all about peace

302
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,420
and it's

303
00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:23,399
all worth doing.

304
00:12:23,399 --> 00:12:26,399
We recruit from some of those pools of

305
00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:28,640
people.

306
00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:31,500
It's a wonderful background. Yeah and

307
00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:32,760
that's that's kind of what I was

308
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,279
thinking and getting at is that you know

309
00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:37,500
the talent pipeline.

310
00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:39,720
Certainly in the work that you do

311
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,880
and what we're teaching here and what

312
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,019
we're trying to do in terms of the

313
00:12:43,019 --> 00:12:45,300
talent pipeline relates to this kind of

314
00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:47,040
work in the CIA so

315
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,320
very excited to hear hear about that and

316
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,440
get your views on that. One more piece of

317
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,980
it though this CIA was very late

318
00:12:55,980 --> 00:12:57,540
to adding

319
00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:02,279
the cyber piece to our arsenal of skills.

320
00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:05,940
We have always had four directorates and

321
00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:07,560
now we have a fifth.

322
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,019
Just recently it's cyber.

323
00:13:10,019 --> 00:13:13,019
It's all that technology that

324
00:13:13,019 --> 00:13:14,940
we pulled it together in one place at

325
00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:17,940
CIA. It's huge. Yeah and that's what we're

326
00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:20,100
learning in terms of our expansion of

327
00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:21,779
our programming and our what we're

328
00:13:21,779 --> 00:13:23,760
teaching our students.

329
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,100
Everything's become technology based

330
00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:28,800
digitally based and in in all of our

331
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,899
fields. We just started in Applied

332
00:13:30,899 --> 00:13:33,720
Linguistics program on campus a couple

333
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,660
of years ago because of the need for

334
00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:39,360
linguists and actually in

335
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:40,920
the intelligence world.

336
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,500
I'm assuming that you probably know

337
00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:46,740
that the CIA hires lots of linguists in

338
00:13:46,740 --> 00:13:49,860
terms of their work there so. We do

339
00:13:49,860 --> 00:13:50,880
yeah

340
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,760
and we've always been stymied

341
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,880
because we wanted American citizens but

342
00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,180
we always wanted also native

343
00:14:00,180 --> 00:14:02,220
or near native language capabilities.

344
00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:04,040
There's always been a

345
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,860
disconnect there. Yeah, all right, so, what's

346
00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:09,300
next for you?

347
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:11,940
um I uh you've had this great career

348
00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:13,440
you've

349
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,120
talked to the president, briefed the

350
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:16,980
president of the United State's; very

351
00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:18,660
exciting, I'm sure, other exciting things

352
00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:20,700
that we haven't covered,

353
00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:22,860
um what does retirement look like for

354
00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:24,120
you?

355
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,100
It's hard.

356
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,200
It's busy.

357
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:28,860
um...

358
00:14:28,860 --> 00:14:32,040
You know, once they made the movie Argo

359
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,860
about my husband, Tony Mendez,

360
00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:38,720
that just started this whole

361
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,579
piece of interest

362
00:14:41,579 --> 00:14:45,660
in CIA and in us

363
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:48,600
and we lost Tony four years ago

364
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,600
but we've written four books I've got

365
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,880
number five is

366
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,639
it's to be published in March

367
00:14:56,639 --> 00:14:58,279
of

368
00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,320
24. And the next one

369
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,779
is already written.

370
00:15:03,779 --> 00:15:05,760
That's kind of pandemic. That's what you

371
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,079
do when you're

372
00:15:07,079 --> 00:15:10,139
you're right that's what I did uh I was

373
00:15:10,139 --> 00:15:11,459
just the

374
00:15:11,459 --> 00:15:13,860
the author in residence

375
00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:16,920
at the Ernest Hemingway House in Idaho.

376
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,079
10 days fabulous.

377
00:15:19,079 --> 00:15:21,000
Just came back from

378
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,440
Paris

379
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:23,699
right?

380
00:15:23,699 --> 00:15:25,500
Gave a lecture at the Sorbonne University.

381
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:28,680
I mean it just

382
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,380
it doesn't seem to be slowing down

383
00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:34,800
and Tony and I were part of building

384
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,079
out the International Spy Museum in

385
00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:39,920
Washington D.C.

386
00:15:39,959 --> 00:15:42,420
and I'm still on the board I expect

387
00:15:42,420 --> 00:15:44,399
I'll be on the board until I

388
00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:46,620
drop dead.

389
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:48,120
Or get senile.

390
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,000
Yeah well that's great. That's

391
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,180
fantastic. I'm glad to hear that.

392
00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:55,920
I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about your

393
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,579
husband and the movie Argo and as could

394
00:15:59,579 --> 00:16:01,980
you briefly discuss a little bit about

395
00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:04,320
that so the listeners can understand

396
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:05,940
that connection?

397
00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:09,300
I've discovered that most people

398
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:11,639
have seen the movie Argo.

399
00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:13,800
I just took a foreign intelligence group

400
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,160
through the Spy Museum this last week

401
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,339
ahead of the service and 12 other people.

402
00:16:20,339 --> 00:16:22,560
They don't even speak English but they

403
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,779
have seen Argo.

404
00:16:24,779 --> 00:16:28,019
Tony never meant to tell that story

405
00:16:28,019 --> 00:16:30,480
that's just one story,

406
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,540
of a whole bag full of stories,

407
00:16:33,540 --> 00:16:36,779
but George Tenet insisted that he tell

408
00:16:36,779 --> 00:16:38,100
that story,

409
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,259
and that that he tell it to the New York

410
00:16:40,259 --> 00:16:42,120
Times.

411
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,579
and then it just

412
00:16:44,579 --> 00:16:46,800
developed a life of its own,

413
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,079
turned into a movie,

414
00:16:49,079 --> 00:16:53,220
uh George Clooney bought the rights.

415
00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:56,459
Clooney was going to write it direct it

416
00:16:56,459 --> 00:16:57,839
produce it

417
00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:00,060
and star in it.

418
00:17:00,060 --> 00:17:02,759
His big appetites. And all he did was

419
00:17:02,759 --> 00:17:04,859
produce it because he got stuck in

420
00:17:04,859 --> 00:17:05,880
another movie

421
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,740
so Ben Affleck

422
00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:09,119
took it over

423
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,699
and we think he did a great job

424
00:17:11,699 --> 00:17:14,040
and the CIA thinks he did a great job. Oh

425
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,619
my God it's actually a good

426
00:17:16,619 --> 00:17:18,240
story

427
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,540
about the CIA!

428
00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:24,179
Everybody wants to know

429
00:17:24,179 --> 00:17:27,119
is it true to the

430
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,740
the details

431
00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:30,720
and of course they changed details. They

432
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:31,980
do it all the time.

433
00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:33,900
For instance, Tony had three children

434
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:37,380
that was his first marriage.

435
00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:38,820
I wasn't married to him when that

436
00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:40,020
happened.

437
00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:41,580
He lost his wife.

438
00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:43,740
I lost my husband. But that

439
00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:46,500
first marriage, he had three kids,

440
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:48,419
but in the movie,

441
00:17:48,419 --> 00:17:50,760
they made it one because to make the

442
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,480
storyline compact and

443
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,460
while the other two kids have never

444
00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:58,380
never forgave -

445
00:17:58,380 --> 00:18:00,660
it was their moment and they got wiped

446
00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:02,940
out of the movie -

447
00:18:02,940 --> 00:18:06,059
we still hear from the six house

448
00:18:06,059 --> 00:18:08,760
guests. They're all still around.

449
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,940
The last couple just retired from state

450
00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:13,140
department,

451
00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:16,080
so we get Christmas cards and see them

452
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,520
occasionally.

453
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,380
It's an amazing

454
00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:21,419
thing

455
00:18:21,419 --> 00:18:23,460
and the fact that it was immortalized

456
00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:27,360
was just, it broke, it broke, every rule

457
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,740
that there is at CIA

458
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:32,820
and they loved it.

459
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:36,660
Well, I've seen the movie I suggest those

460
00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:38,460
who haven't who are listening they need

461
00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:39,900
to go see that movie because we have a

462
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:41,820
connection here today here on our

463
00:18:41,820 --> 00:18:43,020
podcast.

464
00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:45,720
So it was really good to talk to you.

465
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,299
It's very uh interesting life that

466
00:18:48,299 --> 00:18:49,679
you've led and it started here in

467
00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:51,960
Wichita and a connection to Wichita

468
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,780
State I hope that we can see you

469
00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:56,880
sometime back here in Wichita if you do

470
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,919
have happen to come back please stop by

471
00:18:58,919 --> 00:19:01,260
and we'll visit some more.

472
00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:03,600
I think I'll make a point of it. Yes so

473
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,220
good to meet you. Thank you for being

474
00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:08,240
here. Loved talking to you.

475
00:19:09,179 --> 00:19:10,679
On the next edition of the Forward

476
00:19:10,679 --> 00:19:12,900
Together podcast join me when I talk to

477
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:14,700
some of our current Shockers about their

478
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:16,980
experiences learning, working and growing

479
00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:18,780
at Wichita State.

480
00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:20,460
Thank you for joining me today and

481
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:22,559
remember to rate review and subscribe,

482
00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:23,820
wherever you listen to the Forward

483
00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:26,659
Together podcast.

484
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,419
[Music]

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00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:32,030
[Music]

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[Music]

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[Music]

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