1 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:13,040 Hello and welcome to the Forward 2 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:14,960 Together podcast. I'm Rick Muma, 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,119 president of Wichita State University. 4 00:00:17,119 --> 00:00:19,359 My guest today is Carl Bowden, who earned 5 00:00:19,359 --> 00:00:22,720 his MBA at Wichita State in 2022. He 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,720 currently works as a consultant for Allen 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,279 Gibbs & Houlik, one of the largest CPA 8 00:00:27,279 --> 00:00:30,640 advisory firms in Kansas. Carl works as 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,880 an executive coach specializing in group 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,960 facilitation and outdoor leadership 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,399 retreats. Welcome to the show, Carl. 12 00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:40,079 Carl, welcome to the podcast. It's great 13 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:42,160 to see you and thanks for stopping by. 14 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:44,079 >> Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks uh 15 00:00:44,079 --> 00:00:46,399 for the invite. It's nice to catch up 16 00:00:46,399 --> 00:00:48,480 again. It's always nice running into 17 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:50,160 each other in Wichita and 18 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:50,559 >> Yeah. 19 00:00:50,559 --> 00:00:53,199 >> Uh just kind of seeing what each other 20 00:00:53,199 --> 00:00:54,000 are doing. 21 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,680 >> Yeah. Well, you reminded me um I was a 22 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,680 guest on your podcast the very 23 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,239 beginning. Yes. You told me the second 24 00:01:02,239 --> 00:01:03,359 uh episode. 25 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:05,280 >> Yeah, it was the second episode of the 26 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,119 Discovery and Leadership podcast. That 27 00:01:07,119 --> 00:01:09,360 was back when I was running my business, 28 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,200 Exemplify Leadership. 29 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,840 >> Uh we had a bunch of guests from Wichita 30 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,600 here just trying to change the community 31 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,240 in a positive direction. But thank you 32 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:19,520 for being on that. 33 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,040 >> I literally just listened to that 34 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,040 episode before coming here. Uh 35 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:24,960 >> oh. Well, hopefully I didn't say 36 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:27,840 anything I that wasn't useful or 37 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,920 >> No, it was very helpful. We were talking 38 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,640 about service and what it means to be a 39 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:33,439 >> servant leader. 40 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:34,720 >> A servant leader. And 41 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:35,920 >> I remember that now. 42 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:36,880 >> Yeah. 43 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,600 >> So, we'll talk more about um how you got 44 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,320 into that as we have our conversation 45 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:44,720 today. But, as you know, this podcast um 46 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,720 is really meant to showcase uh our alums 47 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,920 um and or other people connected to the 48 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,960 university. um you got your graduate 49 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,119 degree here. Um what brought you to 50 00:01:57,119 --> 00:01:58,640 Wichita State? Why did you decide to 51 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,040 come get your MBA here at Wichita State? 52 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,360 >> So, kind of a long story there, but 53 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,360 ultimately I think it came down to a 54 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:06,640 past relationship. 55 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,200 >> Okay. 56 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,200 >> I was dating a woman at the time. That's 57 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,280 kind of what brought me to Wichita. 58 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,520 >> Uh it was in the middle of COVID. 59 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:13,920 >> Okay. 60 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:16,400 >> A lot of craziness was happening during 61 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:17,920 that time. And 62 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:20,080 >> I knew I wanted to get into the 63 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,440 leadership uh profession. And I I had 64 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,440 that passion within me. It was probably 65 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,680 about 10 years prior to that actual 66 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,840 moment. And uh I had applied to a bunch 67 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,319 of different graduate schools, but my 68 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:36,480 girlfriend at at the time, she was here 69 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,840 in Wichita, and the affordability of 70 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,840 Wichita State was definitely in line 71 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,120 with what I was doing. 72 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,640 >> And they had the program that I wanted 73 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:46,720 to be a part of, which was the NBA 74 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:47,920 program here 75 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,640 >> and um that's what brought me down to 76 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:52,000 Wichita. At the same time, I was 77 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,640 starting a business. Uh, so a lot 78 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:56,560 happening all at once. 79 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,360 >> Yeah. You said that uh you knew for a 80 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:00,560 long time you wanted to get into 81 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,239 leadership, coaching, development. What 82 00:03:04,239 --> 00:03:06,000 what's what sparked that with you? How 83 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,159 how did that come about? Yeah, I think 84 00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:11,120 it's always kind of been a part of me, 85 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,480 but I didn't realize until I started to 86 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,680 reflect and just look back at my life on 87 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,920 all these different moments that led me 88 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:23,280 to that passion of leadership. 89 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,959 >> However, there was one particular 90 00:03:24,959 --> 00:03:27,519 moment. It was 91 00:03:27,519 --> 00:03:29,680 actually back at K-State where I did my 92 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,040 undergrad 93 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,920 >> and I came across a book called The 21 94 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:35,760 Indispensable Qualities of a Leader. 95 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:36,319 Mhm. 96 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:37,840 >> That was by John Maxwell. 97 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:38,239 >> Mhm. 98 00:03:38,239 --> 00:03:41,040 >> I read that book and I was just 99 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,879 absolutely hooked. 100 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:45,280 >> Honestly, I didn't really like reading 101 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,040 too much before that. 102 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:47,360 >> Yeah. 103 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,440 >> But I read that book and I just could 104 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,840 not stop reading it. I read it about 105 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,640 four to five times back to back and 106 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,040 >> I just tried to practice it on campus 107 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,319 and in the community and that was the 108 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:03,200 moment where I was like this is probably 109 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,000 probably my biggest passion 110 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,480 that I have ever come across. At the 111 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,319 time I was actually getting a wildlife 112 00:04:10,319 --> 00:04:12,799 conservation biology degree. 113 00:04:12,799 --> 00:04:15,360 >> So very much more science related 114 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,600 >> and this was more business people 115 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,400 related. 116 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,359 >> Okay. Well, uh, one of the things I've 117 00:04:21,359 --> 00:04:22,960 noticed about you over the years, and 118 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,600 you know, I follow you on LinkedIn, um, 119 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,240 and you have developed all kinds of 120 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,160 leadership programs. You've taken people 121 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,400 on trips, um, I think across the world, 122 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:35,360 right? In some cases, 123 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,160 >> I have done I have had some clients in 124 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,080 Africa. So, 125 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,080 >> that was from a past like summer 126 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,240 opportunity. Yeah. uh when I was getting 127 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:45,919 that wildlife conservation biology 128 00:04:45,919 --> 00:04:48,560 degree and I was studying mountain lions 129 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,360 for a summer. 130 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:49,840 >> Okay. 131 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,120 >> And a woman that I was working with, she 132 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,120 went to Africa to study cheetahs and she 133 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,479 was putting on this professional 134 00:04:58,479 --> 00:04:59,680 development 135 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,759 >> like program with their company. It was 136 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:04,800 called the Zambian Carnivore Program. 137 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,560 >> And I reached out and I was like, "Hey, 138 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,880 I just started this business. I'd love 139 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,120 to help you guys out." and she's like, 140 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,320 "Yeah, let's let's have you." Uh, so I 141 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,120 was doing kind of like a workshop for 142 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,400 them every year uh for all of their 143 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,320 colleagues in Zambia, 144 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,120 >> Africa, and just help them along their 145 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,280 lead on their leadership journey. So 146 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:28,560 >> yeah, that's great. 147 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:28,960 >> Yeah. 148 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,320 >> Well, and I admire you in turn you seem 149 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,039 to be one of the kind of individuals who 150 00:05:35,039 --> 00:05:38,479 sees an opportunity and, you know, takes 151 00:05:38,479 --> 00:05:39,759 advantage of that. you know, when 152 00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:41,280 someone opens up a door, it seems like 153 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,479 you go through it. Um, and and I I 154 00:05:44,479 --> 00:05:47,360 always talk about that, too. Um, when 155 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,520 I'm talking to young people or people 156 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,600 who want to know about my leadership 157 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,759 journey. So, I do think that's important 158 00:05:53,759 --> 00:05:57,280 to do is when when people um provide 159 00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:58,800 these opportunities or when you see an 160 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,400 opportunity and they take advantage of 161 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,800 it, you can always go back, but um if 162 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,400 you if you don't take advantage of that, 163 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:05,600 sometimes you 164 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,919 >> might have a lot of regrets in that. So 165 00:06:07,919 --> 00:06:11,199 maybe talk a little bit more about um 166 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:13,600 your journey so to speak and and how 167 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,440 you've looked at things because it is 168 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,600 kind of unusual that we would have 169 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,720 someone um early in your career who's 170 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,680 out there you know coaching people and 171 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,520 coaching executives co coaching people 172 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,680 in Africa. I I think that's very unique 173 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,639 and um so I'd be excited to hear more 174 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:34,080 about what you think about that. 175 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,479 >> Yeah. So, I think first of all, it takes 176 00:06:36,479 --> 00:06:40,400 a lot of courage to just go out there as 177 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,639 a young person 178 00:06:42,639 --> 00:06:44,639 >> just getting done with their graduate 179 00:06:44,639 --> 00:06:47,440 degree at Wichita State and 180 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,840 being out there getting connected with 181 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:52,720 these high level business leaders. I 182 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,400 always tell people, you know, I don't 183 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,400 tell you what to do. I just walk with 184 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,600 you on the journey. 185 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:58,000 >> Yeah. 186 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,759 >> I ask the right type of questions to 187 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:03,759 help them see a clearer path. So yes, it 188 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:06,639 does take some open minds for someone 189 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:09,360 older, I guess, to look to a younger 190 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,199 person and be like, "Okay, like why 191 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:14,160 should I listen to these questions or 192 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,400 some of your advice?" But 193 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,240 >> it's it's not about me. 194 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,400 >> It's about them. What do they want to 195 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,160 accomplish? I help them get there. Now, 196 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,759 there's also a huge gap, I would say, in 197 00:07:27,759 --> 00:07:31,440 terms of young adults and them needing 198 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,599 that leadership guidance. 199 00:07:33,599 --> 00:07:35,759 >> So, that's that's kind of a niche that 200 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:36,479 I've 201 00:07:36,479 --> 00:07:36,800 >> Yeah. 202 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,880 >> really started to focus on. 203 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,360 >> Uh I can connect with that population a 204 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:42,400 little bit better 205 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,560 >> as well. I had to really figure that out 206 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,000 starting a business. 207 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,479 >> It's a lot of different experiments 208 00:07:48,479 --> 00:07:50,240 >> that you test. You figure out what 209 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,039 works, what doesn't. And that was a 210 00:07:53,039 --> 00:07:55,520 population that definitely worked better 211 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,160 for me. 212 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,400 >> Yeah. Well, I I think it's really 213 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,560 interesting. You should be very proud of 214 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,479 of what you've what you've accomplished 215 00:08:02,479 --> 00:08:06,160 and what I've seen um throughout the 216 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,960 short time I've known you. Um so, a 217 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,720 little bit more about that. Um uh you're 218 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,039 at Wichita State in the MBA program. How 219 00:08:15,039 --> 00:08:18,160 how did that help shape your philosophy 220 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,160 and your approach to leadership and and 221 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,560 working with people and helping their 222 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:23,360 journey? 223 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,879 >> Yeah, there was a class that I took with 224 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:28,879 Dr. Gerald Graham. 225 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:30,960 >> He's been a part of the university for I 226 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,759 don't even know how many years. 227 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:34,240 >> More than 50 years. People always uh 228 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,399 point back to him. He's been influential 229 00:08:36,399 --> 00:08:38,959 in so many um- so I I thought you were 230 00:08:38,959 --> 00:08:41,039 going to say his name, but I wasn't for 231 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:41,519 sure. 232 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:43,760 >> Yeah. and he led the center of 233 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,279 management development for a number of 234 00:08:45,279 --> 00:08:46,880 years. Is he still doing that? 235 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:48,959 >> He's still uh working at the university. 236 00:08:48,959 --> 00:08:51,040 I'm not sure if he's running that 237 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,360 particular um area, but he's involved in 238 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,920 it and I think he teaches in that sort. 239 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,000 >> Yeah. So, I took his class. It was 240 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,320 organizational behavior 241 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,320 >> and I would say that was probably one of 242 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,680 the most uh leadership focused classes 243 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:08,800 that I had at Wichita State. And you 244 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,640 talked about different levels of 245 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,080 management or leadership. And those four 246 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,120 levels was a directive style, a coaching 247 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,720 style, a supportive style, and an 248 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,040 encouraging style. 249 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,480 >> And that really really stuck out to me 250 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,040 >> because as a leader, we have to meet 251 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,160 people where they are, not where they 252 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,959 where we think they should be, but where 253 00:09:32,959 --> 00:09:35,760 are they? So there's different styles in 254 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,760 how we lead and how we manage. Uh that 255 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,959 really speaks to people more than others 256 00:09:42,959 --> 00:09:44,240 depending on where they're at in an 257 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,200 organization. So a directive style is 258 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,600 going to apply a lot more to maybe an 259 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,399 entry-level employee. 260 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:54,399 But a coaching style, that's kind of 261 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:56,800 where they're starting to develop that 262 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,880 leadership within them. That's where we 263 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,800 ask them the question to get them to 264 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,279 start leading their own life in their 265 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:06,080 own position within the company. 266 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,600 >> And then you got the supportive and 267 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,440 encouraging style. So those are your 268 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,240 upper level leaders where they already 269 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:13,839 kind of know what to do. They don't need 270 00:10:13,839 --> 00:10:15,120 that directive style. 271 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:16,000 >> Yeah. 272 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000 >> But they need more support, more 273 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,200 encouragement. 274 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,079 >> They need someone walking with them 275 00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:25,360 along the journey there. So that was 276 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,839 extremely impactful for me was that 277 00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:31,600 class. Um the other thing was the Berlin 278 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,320 experience and that was with Dr. Chris 279 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:35,519 Broberg, 280 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:37,839 >> associate dean for the business school 281 00:10:37,839 --> 00:10:38,959 here 282 00:10:38,959 --> 00:10:42,079 >> and that was that was life-changing too 283 00:10:42,079 --> 00:10:43,920 because of I think mainly the 284 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,720 connections with people all across the 285 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:47,120 world. 286 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,920 >> Yeah. I think we had we had 287 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,000 members in our group from about four 288 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,200 different countries. So obviously people 289 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,200 from the United States, we had someone 290 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:02,959 from Ghana, 291 00:11:02,959 --> 00:11:06,160 >> someone from India, someone from Japan, 292 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,040 those um those people from other 293 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,440 countries all went to the Berlin School 294 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,000 of Economics and Law. 295 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,959 >> And I think just hearing their different 296 00:11:16,959 --> 00:11:19,120 experiences from their countries, but 297 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,120 also from where they they were going to 298 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,360 school in Berlin, 299 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,800 >> that was a huge impact. And I I have 300 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,079 still maintained some of those 301 00:11:28,079 --> 00:11:31,920 friendships today. Uh there was a woman 302 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,880 named Shruy. She was an exceptional 303 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,680 leader. Uh just very motivated in what 304 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:42,079 she was doing. And um I I still stay in 305 00:11:42,079 --> 00:11:44,959 contact with her. And then Isaac, he's 306 00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:48,079 he was the guy from Ghana. Uh I had a 307 00:11:48,079 --> 00:11:51,680 friend of mine where we both traveled 308 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,560 Europe together a few years back. 309 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:56,800 and we went to Berlin because I was 310 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:57,600 like, 311 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,600 >> well, we didn't actually go to Berlin 312 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:00,880 because of COVID. 313 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:01,760 >> Okay. 314 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,120 >> And uh I was like, man, I gota I got to 315 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,440 get there, see what it's like. And Isaac 316 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,600 was still in Berlin at the time. 317 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,519 >> So, I reached out to Isaac and he showed 318 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:13,360 us around the city. 319 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,880 >> And that made our experience so much 320 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,519 better by knowing someone that I went to 321 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:20,320 school with. 322 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,320 >> Yeah. uh in Berlin in a different 323 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,360 country and it it was it was just a very 324 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,880 welcoming experience and friendship. So 325 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,920 that was big as well. But within the 326 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,160 Berlin experience, we did like a 327 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:35,519 consulting project. 328 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:36,160 >> Okay. 329 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,760 >> Where uh we would partner with a 330 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,720 business from outside of Germany uh to 331 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,760 try to enter the German market. Mhm. 332 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,079 >> So we had to do a lot of interviews, a 333 00:12:50,079 --> 00:12:52,800 lot of surveys, questionnaires to figure 334 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,079 out, okay, what's the best way for this 335 00:12:56,079 --> 00:12:58,079 company to enter into the German market 336 00:12:58,079 --> 00:13:00,320 and then we had to present that to the 337 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,240 company at the end. So that was the 338 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,200 hands-on real world experience 339 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,000 >> uh that I think Wichita State provides 340 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,720 >> and I haven't seen many other 341 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,000 universities 342 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,360 >> do that better. 343 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,240 >> Um so thankful for that. Well, that kind 344 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,720 of leads me to my next question. Um, 345 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,079 applied learning, what you're talking 346 00:13:20,079 --> 00:13:22,560 about, experiential learning, um, you 347 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,639 know, giving students that real world 348 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:26,800 um, experience while they're still in 349 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,639 school. And one of the focuses of 350 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:31,040 Wichita State is what makes us different 351 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,040 is that we try to make sure that happens 352 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,959 the moment they show up on campus. You 353 00:13:34,959 --> 00:13:36,320 know, these connections, you know, 354 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,040 that's have all these businesses on our 355 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,079 campus. Campus, nearly 50 companies now 356 00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:43,680 here, you know, located on our campus. 357 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:45,600 and we want them to start working with 358 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,480 them the moment they show up here. Um, 359 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,880 from your perspective as a leadership 360 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,959 coach, you may have hit on some of these 361 00:13:52,959 --> 00:13:56,399 already. Um, what is that kind of 362 00:13:56,399 --> 00:13:59,839 hands-on experience or why is it um so 363 00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:02,720 essential uh in terms of developing 364 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,000 effective leaders? 365 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,760 >> Yeah. Well, I think it does go back to 366 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,399 that Berlin experience. Uh, that was 367 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:11,519 >> essential 368 00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:13,839 >> and it's helped me more than I can 369 00:14:13,839 --> 00:14:17,600 imagine being a consultant at AGH here 370 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,680 in town uh, now today. So just 371 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,440 understanding how the consulting process 372 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,800 works I think really helps get into the 373 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,000 business community and how businesses 374 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,760 work and how they provide services 375 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,360 >> uh that fits clients needs and wants 376 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,199 that just makes life easier for 377 00:14:41,199 --> 00:14:42,320 business. So 378 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,160 >> I think that's I think that's really 379 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,720 important. Another thing that I think 380 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,519 Wichita State does well is the innovation 381 00:14:49,519 --> 00:14:50,639 campus. 382 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:53,199 >> So Tonya Witherspoon, I think she's one 383 00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:55,680 of the people that leads that here on 384 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:56,320 campus. 385 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,000 >> She's not here anymore, but she was here 386 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,279 for a number of years. She's kind of 387 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:01,680 moved on to the next stage of her 388 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:02,639 career. Yeah. 389 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:06,000 >> Yeah. So anyways, like she was out in 390 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,279 the community at the time and I would 391 00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:09,040 always know Tonya really well. 392 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,839 >> Yeah. I cross paths with her and 393 00:15:11,839 --> 00:15:13,440 >> just to hear all the different things 394 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,920 that are going on on the innovation 395 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,920 campus to bridge the gap of business and 396 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,440 academics. 397 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,399 >> That's that's huge. And I think it's 398 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:26,160 very obvious that you guys are committed 399 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,040 to that. 400 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,440 >> You literally have a bridge. 401 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,000 >> Yeah. 402 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,720 >> Connecting the innovation campus with 403 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,160 academics. And 404 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,120 >> again, I don't think many universities 405 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:37,839 do that. 406 00:15:37,839 --> 00:15:39,120 >> Yeah. 407 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,800 So, you've worked in a range of 408 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,399 organizations, um, WSU Tech, uh, 409 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:48,079 nonprofits, uh, other local businesses. 410 00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:50,480 What patterns do you see and how Wichita 411 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,320 organizations cultivate leadership and 412 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:53,759 and community? 413 00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:55,920 >> Yeah. 414 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,839 So, it usually starts with a 415 00:15:57,839 --> 00:15:59,360 conversation, 416 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,440 an idea of where people are at and where 417 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,279 they want to be. 418 00:16:05,279 --> 00:16:08,720 And the thing about cultivating 419 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,639 community and leadership within 420 00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:14,399 businesses, 421 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:15,519 it takes time. 422 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:16,399 >> Mhm. 423 00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:19,519 >> It takes a lot of intentional 424 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:22,320 consistency in meeting in building 425 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,519 community to get them to where they want 426 00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:29,920 to go. So the hard part about all all of 427 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,759 this is that we can we can have a 428 00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:34,720 theory. We can have a conversation, but 429 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,600 if we don't get past that and get into 430 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,240 the action of what we're actually trying 431 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,880 to do in business 432 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,360 or what we're trying to build, it's 433 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,199 going to be really hard 434 00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:49,920 >> to make change. 435 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,480 >> So, what's going to make it easy on 436 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,399 people? 437 00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:56,880 As a leadership coach or consultant, I 438 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,120 have to first understand them. have to 439 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,040 ask the right questions of what's going 440 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,279 to enable them to get to where they're 441 00:17:03,279 --> 00:17:05,919 going to go in the easiest way possible 442 00:17:05,919 --> 00:17:08,959 and kind of clearing the path. Uh 443 00:17:08,959 --> 00:17:11,280 there's a concept that I communicate 444 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,439 with people. It's called mapping out 445 00:17:13,439 --> 00:17:15,839 your leadership adventure and it's kind 446 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:17,520 of where my conservation background 447 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,839 comes in a little bit too. I always have 448 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,280 like an outdoor focus on getting 449 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,000 companies to understand, okay, where are 450 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,160 they at and what's the adventure that 451 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,760 they're going on? Maybe they're trying 452 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,640 to climb this big peak over here. How 453 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,400 are we going to get there? So along that 454 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,120 path, sometimes we come across a stream, 455 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,000 a cliff or branches along the path that 456 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,760 we have to navigate around. So 457 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,039 helping them to anticipate that going 458 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,440 forward, understanding like, oh, there's 459 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,880 a there's a cliff here, a river here, 460 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,280 some falling down branches. Those are 461 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,720 some of the challenges, the problems 462 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,600 that we see in business 463 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,640 and help them to understand what it 464 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,520 takes to get through that. 465 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,440 That's ultimately going to get them up 466 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,280 that mountain. 467 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,799 >> I'm just walking with them. Mhm. 468 00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:16,559 >> I'm guiding them along the way. 469 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:17,280 >> Yeah. 470 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,640 >> Uh so again, it takes time, 471 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,640 >> takes intentionality. 472 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:23,600 Um 473 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,960 >> this is not a I I have this conversation 474 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,760 too with students and just younger 475 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,760 people, you know, they want to graduate 476 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,960 and be a CEO. Um 477 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,880 it takes time to get there. It's a 478 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,799 marathon, not a sprint. you know that 479 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,600 this work it t it takes a while to find 480 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,760 your way and and figure out what you 481 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,240 want to do. So I I really like the the 482 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:47,440 what you're where you're going with 483 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:48,080 this. 484 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,679 >> And that's leadership in general though 485 00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:50,160 too. 486 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:50,559 >> Yeah. 487 00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:53,360 >> Cuz you can't just go to a seminar 488 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,280 >> or something and just be completely 489 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:56,240 transformed, 490 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,039 >> problem solved. 491 00:18:57,039 --> 00:18:57,600 >> Yeah. 492 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,720 >> It's a process. 493 00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,120 >> Yeah. 494 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:02,080 >> It it is a adventure. Mhm. 495 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,760 >> So, we got to have the patience uh to 496 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,880 keep going even when it's tough or we're 497 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,520 not getting what we're wanting. Maybe we 498 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,600 do want to be a CEO right out of 499 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,080 >> Yeah. 500 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:14,960 >> college. 501 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,720 >> That's hard to do, at least at a very 502 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,960 high level. Let's say at Koch Industries 503 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,000 or something, 504 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:20,400 >> right? 505 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,240 >> Uh but I mean, if you want to start your 506 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,240 own business, yeah, you can be a CEO, 507 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,320 but you still got to build the business. 508 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:26,720 >> Yeah. 509 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,320 >> And that's the hard- Yeah. 510 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,320 >> part. So, you've mentioned this a couple 511 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,760 of times already. You started uh in 512 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,080 wildlife conservation, 513 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,600 biology, 514 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,679 um before moving into business and 515 00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:40,799 leadership, coach, and you talked a 516 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:42,240 little bit about that transition here to 517 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,000 Wichita State. Um how has that path from 518 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,480 science to strategy influence how you 519 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,919 think about growth and leadership? And 520 00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:52,320 you may have already given an example 521 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,200 about that. Um but especially in 522 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,400 educational settings like WSU. Um and 523 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,720 but before you answer that um where are 524 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:01,520 you from? 525 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,080 >> Salina. 526 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,320 >> Salina. So you grew up in Kansas. um 527 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,200 went to K-State and got this degree in 528 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,160 uh conservation 529 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,240 >> wildlife conservation biology 530 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,640 >> and then came down to Wichita 531 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,039 >> after working in the conservation 532 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:18,640 >> industry I guess for about six years 533 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,039 >> and then uh came down here to get into 534 00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:22,480 the business side of things more 535 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,960 leadership coaching and consulting and 536 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:25,679 all that but 537 00:20:25,679 --> 00:20:28,640 >> so tell me what you did in in the 538 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,720 conserv- conservation 539 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,559 space. Yeah. So, after graduating from 540 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:36,320 K-State, I worked for Kansas Wildlife and 541 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,240 Parks for a little bit. I did some 542 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,880 research uh in streams in south central 543 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,600 Kansas, but also with some reptiles and 544 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,559 amphibians in southeastern Kansas. Uh, 545 00:20:46,559 --> 00:20:47,679 >> are you one of those guys that has 546 00:20:47,679 --> 00:20:49,840 snakes at your house and lizards and 547 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,000 >> Yeah, that's that's how I got into the 548 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,000 whole field was I had a really close 549 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,880 friend and we would literally go out and 550 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,280 just catch snakes and turtles and frogs 551 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,200 and anything we can get our hands on and 552 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,039 just go climbing and 553 00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:08,000 >> adventuring, build forts and stuff. And 554 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,360 >> that uh that is what got me to that 555 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,760 degree. And 556 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,960 I absolutely love the outdoors, but 557 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,799 there's some positives and negatives. 558 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:21,200 Part of the industry, too. And while I 559 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,039 was working for Kansas Wildlife and 560 00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:25,840 Parks, the one thing that honestly kind 561 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,919 of sucked was that I would always have 562 00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:28,960 poison ivy. 563 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:29,440 >> Yeah. 564 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,240 >> Like pretty much the entire summer. 565 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,960 >> Uh so that was kind of a downside 566 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,840 >> of working in the outdoor 567 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,679 >> field. And that's so uh I I I get into 568 00:21:41,679 --> 00:21:43,440 poison ivy all the time. It seems like 569 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,000 in the in the summertime, too. It's it's 570 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,080 not a it's not a pleasant thing to have. 571 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,960 >> Oh, no. And I I was pretty allergic to 572 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,320 it. So, 573 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,559 >> where we were studying was next to 574 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:56,799 streams and I guess you call them 575 00:21:56,799 --> 00:21:59,280 riparian habitat. So, those are just 576 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,200 like the woodland areas 577 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,679 >> next to the stream or whatever. 578 00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:06,799 >> And that's where poison ivy is all the 579 00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:11,120 time. Uh, so even if I had like pants on 580 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:12,799 and everything, I would still get poison 581 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:15,600 ivy. Uh, so it was that or ticks or 582 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,360 chiggers or 583 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:18,640 >> no air conditioning. 584 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,240 >> No air conditioning. Yeah. 585 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:20,720 >> Yeah. 586 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,159 >> So like when I had time off, I would 587 00:22:24,159 --> 00:22:26,159 honestly kind of want to be indoors and 588 00:22:26,159 --> 00:22:29,440 just get away from some of the 589 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,120 >> parasites, I guess. Yeah. 590 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:32,880 >> In the outdoors that you get into. Yeah. 591 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,520 So I did work there for a little bit 592 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,720 and then I was actually working in 593 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,559 sustainable golf course management 594 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:42,159 >> in Lawrence, Kansas 595 00:22:42,159 --> 00:22:44,320 >> for about two years and so it was kind 596 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,559 of like environmental consulting. 597 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:47,360 >> Mhm. 598 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,799 >> And it's great great gig but wasn't 599 00:22:50,799 --> 00:22:52,640 >> like water conservation and 600 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,720 >> Yeah, there's water conservation, soil 601 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,799 management, uh pesticide management, um 602 00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:00,559 a lot of different things. So we did a 603 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:02,080 bunch of surveys. 604 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,880 >> Okay. for golf course superintendent 605 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,240 to just track the water usage, how much 606 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,360 pesticides or fertilizers are using, 607 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:12,880 what are they doing to manage their 608 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:13,840 soils. 609 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,679 >> And we put all that information out, um, 610 00:23:17,679 --> 00:23:20,799 all that data that we compiled and 611 00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:22,960 provided it to those superintendents so 612 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:23,840 they could help 613 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,960 >> monitor things. 614 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:25,520 >> Monitor things, 615 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,960 >> see where they see where they were 616 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,600 needing to change or um Yeah, 617 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,480 >> exactly. So did that for a couple years. 618 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,799 Went back to my hometown in Salina, worked 619 00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:36,400 for the land institute 620 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,200 >> for a little bit and that was more 621 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,080 regenerative agriculture or perennial 622 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,159 grain agriculture. 623 00:23:44,159 --> 00:23:48,080 So a lot of our grains in farming today 624 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,919 are annuals. 625 00:23:49,919 --> 00:23:50,720 >> Yeah. 626 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,240 >> They're not perennial. They don't come 627 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,480 up every single year. So with perennial 628 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,320 grains, you just plant one year, comes 629 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,960 up the next five. So you're saving time, 630 00:23:58,960 --> 00:23:59,840 money, 631 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,080 >> way better for the environment. 632 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,840 >> Um, so that was that was one of the main 633 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,760 things that I focused on before coming 634 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,840 into leadership. I was doing more 635 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,159 environmental education, 636 00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:14,960 community building, event planning when 637 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,039 I was when I was doing that with the 638 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,080 land institute. And that I think at that 639 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,919 time that's when I really started 640 00:24:21,919 --> 00:24:25,279 looking at okay, how do we get into 641 00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:28,480 leadership or how do we spread that word 642 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,200 of perennial grains out into the world? 643 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,480 And I had a really interesting thought 644 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,960 of how to do that. and just tried to 645 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,039 think of a bunch of different things in 646 00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:43,360 my life that spread a message quickly. I 647 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,919 instantly thought of my faith and just 648 00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:47,200 how 649 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,520 >> like instead of just having one 650 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,159 centralized focus of operations, I 651 00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:54,320 guess, and having those followers or 652 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,679 that community, 653 00:24:55,679 --> 00:24:57,760 >> having multiple kind of central 654 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,039 operations 655 00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:01,600 >> almost like a franchise model in a way. 656 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,640 >> Um, but like within the church, you kind 657 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,600 of see that as well. And uh at least 658 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,640 with the Christian faith like that has 659 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,240 completely transformed society more than 660 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,679 probably anything. 661 00:25:15,679 --> 00:25:16,320 >> Yeah. 662 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,159 >> Uh so in a way I try to look at that as 663 00:25:20,159 --> 00:25:22,960 a way to lead as well instead of leading 664 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,120 just followers. Lead 665 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:27,039 leaders. 666 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:28,880 >> So it's kind of multiplying that 667 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,159 effective change 668 00:25:30,159 --> 00:25:32,159 >> that train the trainer that pyramid 669 00:25:32,159 --> 00:25:33,440 type. 670 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,720 >> Yeah. So, I think your original question 671 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,000 though was how we kind of got off there. 672 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,600 >> Well, I mean, I think you answered some 673 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,600 of that, but how how did all of that 674 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,360 influence um in in thinking about growth 675 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,120 and leadership, especially in 676 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:50,720 educational settings? 677 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,360 >> Yeah. Uh the main thing I've been 678 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:55,120 thinking about lately is the scientific 679 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:56,480 method 680 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,919 >> and tell me more about that. 681 00:25:57,919 --> 00:25:59,360 >> Yeah. So, with 682 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,279 >> you learned that in in your degree, in 683 00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:03,679 your first degree probably about that. 684 00:26:03,679 --> 00:26:04,159 Yeah, 685 00:26:04,159 --> 00:26:07,520 >> definitely. And it was actually I think 686 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,840 it was 2 or 3 years into running 687 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,760 Exemplify Leadership, the business I was 688 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,159 running. Uh Amber Dunn, she's with 689 00:26:14,159 --> 00:26:17,679 Nexus. It's a entrepreneurial support 690 00:26:17,679 --> 00:26:19,679 organization in town. 691 00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:21,600 >> And she was part of a panel. She said 692 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,080 that business is really all about doing 693 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,159 a set of experiments, finding out what 694 00:26:26,159 --> 00:26:28,400 works and what doesn't. 695 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,000 >> Honestly, that's kind of how the 696 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,640 scientific method works. We have a 697 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,240 hypothesis. 698 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,120 We do our research. We start testing our 699 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,080 hypothesis. We gather the data and then 700 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,320 we have a conclusion and then we keep 701 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,240 doing experiments. 702 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,400 >> So 703 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,320 that has helped a lot I think especially 704 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,480 in the consulting space because we do a 705 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,080 lot of research by asking a lot of 706 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,400 questions of some of the clients that we 707 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,279 work with. We gather all that data. We 708 00:27:01,279 --> 00:27:04,000 present the data to the client and then 709 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,000 we kind of hash it out a little bit. We 710 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,559 do a lot of facilitated discussions. 711 00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,279 Then we have a conclusion and then we 712 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:13,440 start taking the action steps to get 713 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,279 them to where they want to be. So 714 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,279 just that concept in general, yeah, 715 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:22,000 >> I think has transformed my thought 716 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,799 process and uh coaching, consulting and 717 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,640 just kind of bridging the gap of 718 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,880 um academics with real world experience. 719 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,320 >> Yeah. Yeah. I I like the um I like that 720 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,320 approach. I I like how you've applied 721 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,799 something that you learned along the way 722 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:45,279 into something that's useful for leaders 723 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:48,320 or potentially useful for them to kind 724 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,240 of make sense of things and and it you 725 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,480 know what I like about it the best 726 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,480 >> it's very linear 727 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,000 >> and um 728 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,880 >> I'm obviously a linear kind of a thinker 729 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,880 kind of a concrete sequential kind of 730 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,279 thinker and that really resonates with 731 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:04,000 me 732 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,480 >> not everybody's that way obviously but I 733 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:07,440 do think 734 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,520 >> in just my own experience experience and 735 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,200 being in various different leadership 736 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,200 roles. Um, you kind of have to have some 737 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,360 of that. Um, if you're going to be 738 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,440 successful, you you got to be able to 739 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,279 start and finish something and you got 740 00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:22,320 to be able to figure out how you're 741 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,399 going to get there. I think a lot a lot 742 00:28:24,399 --> 00:28:25,679 of what 743 00:28:25,679 --> 00:28:29,919 >> um uh maybe um trips people up is that 744 00:28:29,919 --> 00:28:31,919 they're they just think about this and 745 00:28:31,919 --> 00:28:34,159 they don't think about that process. In 746 00:28:34,159 --> 00:28:36,000 your case, the scientific method. there 747 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,960 is a method to getting um to the end of 748 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,279 something. And I I just 749 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:42,559 >> I think that's interesting that you 750 00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:44,080 brought that up. I think I think that's 751 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,120 very useful. 752 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,840 >> Yeah. Well, I think our adventures in 753 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,880 life and business, I mean, they can be 754 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,279 linear. We need to understand the end 755 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:54,080 point, 756 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,360 >> but it's a journey. 757 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,080 >> Yeah. 758 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,760 >> That journey is going to be going all 759 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,240 kinds of different places. And we had to 760 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,960 understand and anticipate 761 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,760 some of the peaks and valleys along the 762 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,200 way. 763 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,799 >> And 764 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:12,559 I think just understanding though the 765 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:15,760 end goal, what is this all for? 766 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,039 >> That's what keeps us going. 767 00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:17,919 >> Yeah. 768 00:29:17,919 --> 00:29:19,600 >> And if we can continually remind 769 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,399 ourselves of that, 770 00:29:22,399 --> 00:29:24,320 >> then we're going to get to that end goal 771 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,480 or complete that degree or 772 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,720 >> Yeah. start that bun- that business 773 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,360 and oftentimes we just don't know the 774 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,480 end goal. 775 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,559 >> We don't spend the time to really figure 776 00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:38,559 that out. 777 00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:40,480 >> That's what I help people do. 778 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,640 >> I help people see that end goal, the 779 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,520 why, the purpose, the vi- the vision, the 780 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:46,399 mission. 781 00:29:46,399 --> 00:29:47,279 >> Yeah. 782 00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:48,720 >> So they can keep going 783 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,120 >> and they can start off right. 784 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,679 >> And in my mind, that's a very linear way 785 00:29:53,679 --> 00:29:56,960 of thinking. And I I I do I I I know 786 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,159 that some people are have different ways 787 00:30:00,159 --> 00:30:03,120 of thinking or abstract, random, random, 788 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,520 whatever. Um, which is fine. Um, but to 789 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,760 your point, thinking about where you're 790 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,399 going, you you kind of have to think in 791 00:30:12,399 --> 00:30:14,399 a you can kind of curve around a little 792 00:30:14,399 --> 00:30:16,480 bit, but you've got to be thinking about 793 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,559 where where that end goal is to your 794 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:19,360 point. 795 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,279 >> Yeah. And another thing I'm thinking 796 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:25,039 about is are we doing what we're meant 797 00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:27,279 to be doing? 798 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:30,080 >> Is this is this what we're meant for? So 799 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,120 is is it a passion of ours, but also are 800 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,640 we really good at it? 801 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,039 >> Yeah. 802 00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:36,159 >> Because we can be passionate about 803 00:30:36,159 --> 00:30:38,640 something but might not be the best at 804 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:39,520 it. 805 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,760 >> Or we could be really good at something 806 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,919 and we might not really like it all that 807 00:30:43,919 --> 00:30:44,799 much. 808 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:46,640 >> So I think it's important to understand 809 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,320 both of those things. 810 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,240 mash it up together, 811 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,559 >> think of the end goal, and kind of go in 812 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,159 that linear path like you're talking 813 00:30:54,159 --> 00:30:55,600 about 814 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,799 >> to get us to where we're going. 815 00:30:56,799 --> 00:30:57,360 >> Yeah. 816 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,200 >> It makes it a lot easier that way. 817 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,440 >> Really useful information. 818 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,159 >> So, if you're talking um with current 819 00:31:04,159 --> 00:31:06,720 Wichita State students, I'm sure you do. 820 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,799 I'm sure you come across them. Um, and 821 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:10,159 they're preparing to enter their first 822 00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:13,039 leadership roles. What advice would you 823 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:15,200 give them about leading um with 824 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,320 authenticity and impact? That obviously 825 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,840 those are two important things. We've 826 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,720 talked a little bit about impact um in 827 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,559 your example, but 828 00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:26,080 >> tell me more about that. 829 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,000 >> Well, there's a quote that comes to mind 830 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120 and it states that "the most unique thing 831 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,600 that we have to provide to the world is 832 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,360 ourselves". 833 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,399 It's telling our story. 834 00:31:38,399 --> 00:31:40,799 >> Now, we have to do a lot of research and 835 00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:44,080 understanding of ourselves in order to 836 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,200 really bring out that uniqueness. 837 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,480 So, we have to do a lot of work upfront 838 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,720 of just understanding ourselves. I think 839 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,080 a lot of the time students get into 840 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,600 college 841 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,640 just because everyone else is doing it, 842 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,320 their friends are doing it. It's kind of 843 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,919 like the herd mentality of just 844 00:32:03,919 --> 00:32:06,240 following the herd. 845 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,960 >> We need to be more proactive as 846 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,840 students, as a society, and really 847 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,039 understanding what do we want, what kind 848 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:17,840 of change do we want. 849 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,919 >> So we have to be proactive, understand 850 00:32:19,919 --> 00:32:24,159 that, and then once we know that, 851 00:32:24,159 --> 00:32:26,480 then we can be ourselves. we can live 852 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,519 authentically and make a really big 853 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:32,240 impact in the world. 854 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,080 >> So 855 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,240 ultimately I would say be yourself. 856 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:37,039 >> Yeah. 857 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:40,240 >> Just be yourself. But in order to be 858 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,760 yourself, you got to understand yourself 859 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,559 too. 860 00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:46,559 >> Yeah. Well, I think being authentic, I I 861 00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:49,200 personally um think that that's probably 862 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,279 one of the more important things and in 863 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,519 terms of, you know, being in a 864 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:55,840 leadership role or or leading, you know, 865 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,640 and you would agree that everybody can 866 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,240 lead. It doesn't matter what role 867 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,120 they're in, but being authentic and 868 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,919 approachable, um I think is really 869 00:33:05,919 --> 00:33:08,559 important. It's It's helped me, I think, 870 00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:12,240 um, understand people better and, um, 871 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,000 them understanding me, too. 872 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,159 >> Yeah. And I think part of authenticity 873 00:33:16,159 --> 00:33:21,039 is being humble and also vulnerable in 874 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:22,799 just who you are. 875 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:24,640 >> I think one thing that I really 876 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,080 appreciate about you, Rick, is that you 877 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,440 go to where students are. You don't sit 878 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,640 in some high tower waiting for them to 879 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,080 come to you or anything like that. 880 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,320 You're out there with the people 881 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,399 >> and I think you share your life well to 882 00:33:42,399 --> 00:33:45,039 where pe where people where students can 883 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:46,320 relate 884 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,399 >> and 885 00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:51,519 that authenticity that wholeness of 886 00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:53,200 communicating 887 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,200 >> both your professional and personal side 888 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,519 of life like 889 00:33:57,519 --> 00:33:59,679 >> that connects and that creates 890 00:33:59,679 --> 00:34:02,320 transformation. Yeah. So, 891 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,559 >> Well, I'm glad you noticed that. I do, 892 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:07,519 it is intentional. Um, because I think 893 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:10,639 it's important for not only students 894 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:12,720 seeing me in their environment, but I 895 00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:14,399 also bring them into my environment, 896 00:34:14,399 --> 00:34:16,240 too, because I want them to be inspired 897 00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:18,000 by that. You know, they might want to be 898 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,879 a president one day. And seeing themselves 899 00:34:20,879 --> 00:34:22,800 in that kind of environment, and that 900 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,040 kind of setting really helps people 901 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,359 understand that. particularly our 902 00:34:27,359 --> 00:34:28,960 population of students. We have many 903 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,919 first generation students. Um students 904 00:34:31,919 --> 00:34:33,440 who are disadvantaged one way or the 905 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,560 other. Um being able to have those kind 906 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,280 of experiences I think helps them more 907 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,399 than anything. 908 00:34:40,399 --> 00:34:42,159 >> I think what you just described there is 909 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,159 one of the most underrated things in 910 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,520 leadership is just living the example. 911 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,599 >> They see what you're doing, how you 912 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:52,480 connect with people. That inspires them 913 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,480 to go out there and do the same. 914 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:55,599 >> Yeah. 915 00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:57,920 So, I think it's very important that we 916 00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,359 be mindful 917 00:34:59,359 --> 00:35:01,760 >> of who we're surrounding ourselves with, 918 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,320 but also the example that we're we are 919 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,040 living to create that positive change. 920 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,160 >> Yeah. 921 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,599 >> Well, I really appreciate you stopping 922 00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:12,000 by the podcast and it's good to see you 923 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,880 again. All of this is wonderful 924 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,680 information that um well hopefully that 925 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,119 listeners and viewers will tune in and 926 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:22,960 um listen a little bit about what you 927 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,040 had to say because I think it's all very 928 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,480 valid and timely and particularly in you 929 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,240 know difficult times that we are all 930 00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:31,839 experiencing. 931 00:35:31,839 --> 00:35:34,240 So thank you so much for for doing that. 932 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:36,160 >> Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. 933 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:36,240 You're 934 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:38,000 >> welcome. Thanks to our listeners for 935 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,079 joining us today. Be sure to follow, 936 00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:42,160 rate, and share the podcast so others 937 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,240 can find it, too. And if you're curious 938 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,320 to learn more about the ideas touched 939 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,040 on, check out my book, Student Centered 940 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,119 and Innovation Driven: A Guide to 941 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,520 Transforming Higher Education. It dives 942 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,520 deeper into the story of Wichita State's 943 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,920 transformation and what it takes to lead 944 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,520 meaningful change. Visit 945 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,599 wichita.edu/book 946 00:36:01,599 --> 00:36:06,359 for more information. Go Shockers. 947 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,720 Sponsorship for the Forward Together 948 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:18,000 podcast is provided by Scott Rice Office 949 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,320 Works and the Shocker Store. 950 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,880 Additional thanks to NIAR AMP, WSU 951 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,079 Carpentry Shop, and GoCreate.